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 Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux

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bdquick
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:45 pm

The worse release I've seen was 10.1, but I only started at 9.1. I still haven't had time to install 11.3, and for that matter my torrent client keeps crashing so its not even downloaded yet.

The time constraints and infrastructure needed for building and dispensing a distro would be quite large. Time is one thing that is currently in short time with me lately. I thought about using susestudio to build our own little customized live cd of opensuse. My original idea was actually when 11.2 came out, and to supply a KDE3 desktop version, but KDE4.3 was so improved over previous version it didn't really seem needed to me.

I haven't used studio for awhile, but at one time it had all supported versions available plus the paid for novell desktop.

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limo
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:35 am

Hi FeatherMonkey, Thanks a lot for this post... you enlightened me about lots of things I was missing (because of my ignorance about what's going under the hood).
FeatherMonkey wrote:
Not sure what to say Limo you seem to be babbling(best intentions meant not trying to be insulting)...
It's ok... I understand
I see this from the outside and with my biases what you're suggesting is a huge task not saying it is insurmountable but the questions I could ask to be considered would continue and continue...[/quote]
You are right it is a huge task... I got a feeling of it when I visited suse studio.

Quote :
Example eberhard mentioned the freezes this is affecting a fair few distro's and isn't oS specific but related to new tech being introduced which leads to an example question regarding the supposedly stable distro...

I was under the impression that it is KDE not the kernel.

Quote :
So do you support old or new take the intel mess at the moment iirc the main chip from 4-5 years ago is pretty much useless. For sure you could probably find a kernel and xorg etc.. that works but what about the new bits that would be unsupported. So do you support new hardware or old? I'm a competent user I could probably get my head around packaging for any distro but when it comes to backporting I wouldn't even know where to begin, so do you give up security for old?

I'm definitely for supporting new hardware, and for better security, more features and even eye candy... and for sure kde 4 is the way to go... (just with a reasonable care about stability, usability and listening to the community)

Quote :
oS is a community distro as Welan said for sure Novell does some steering but lets take for example the suggestion of Suse becoming a kde distro were this steered by Novell this strategy proposal wouldn't of even been voiced. It simply is the ones that "do" get to shape.

Quote :
Maybe explain what you want from a distro and people can suggest a distro that better fits for example if kde3 then I would of thought Ubuntu with kde trinity. Maybe you just need to let Suse 11.3 settle it always takes a couple of months.

I admitted above my ignorance... so, it seems to me I should look for ALL possible tweaks, customization, updates... etc. for 11.3

I'd suggest starting a thread "11.3 tweaks" where we start with major flaws and it's fixes or workarrounds so we can all enjoy the best of 11.3

This is, I think, much practical.
You agree with me? Shall we start?
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limo
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:57 am

bdquick wrote:
.... My original idea was actually when 11.2 came out, and to supply a KDE3 desktop version, but KDE4.3 was so improved over previous version it didn't really seem needed to me...

Over the past few days I tried the latest kubuntu, previous opensuse with kde 3,
Kubuntu had the same glitches, and kde 3 felt like stone age!

Opensuse is still a class of it's own.
Currently I'm on 11.2 and looking forward to 11.3 once we list all possible tweaks to it.
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FeatherMonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:20 am

In regards to you thought it was kde related not in regards to what Eberhard was talking about it is related to kms. Which old intel chips can't do and I think there is something related to nvidia but I admit to not being really up with it. Prop drivers work fine for me and I'm not sure what I get for allowing the kernel to set the mode if all it is a few more columns and rows in my display before reaching a desktop then I'm not going to go through the heartache afaik the prop drivers don't support it and it is the defaults(Might be auto probing from kernel) that is affecting Suse and possibly other distro's.

In regards to the other bits not sure what to say but when you pay nothing getting listened to as users will always be a fight, it goes back to those that "do" get to choose and I suspect partially the reason why we have a gigantic choice of distros to choose from.

As for stability mmm kinda a paradox stability means old and if my memory serves me correctly debian normal would be the one but you may find for that you give up the latest. If I'm honest I would say
newest = less stable but better support for new
older = stable but possibly more insecure(Here I believe debian excels security and backporting there speciality) and less support for newer.

As for the tweaks etc alas for that one I'll have to leave you to thrash it out with the others. As I gave up a certain amount of stability for newer(Though I actually find it pretty damn stable) and security left to upstream fixes and receiving them quickly vs a team backporting. Combined with the lack of usability configuration to configured the way I want it.

Edit
I have to admit I think the general consensus is the latest kde4 offering is getting on par now.. I always felt they should of called it something else as it wasn't built on the old code base really it is kde-rewritten 0.5(If kde4 is 4.5 now)
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winxp-escapee
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:56 pm

"Btw. I like kde4 and I don't find 11.3 as bad as you make it."

I agree, in fact I think it's excellent! Building an alternative distribution based on openSUSE because of a few slightly negative experiences hardly seems reasonable. I think supporting the existing effort and contributing through early adoption, testing, bug reporting and assisting the developers would be a more rational approach.
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:16 pm

limo wrote:
.. just pointing where the bugs are.

Bugs? Difficulties experienced with a specific system or hardware set up can't be assumed to be universal. To date I've found 11.3 to be rock solid and am delighted with the performance.
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:21 pm

Ok guys... maybe I over reacted to the glitches... I'll reinstall 11.3 and give it another try...
Hopefully I'll get it tweaked and get it to work properly...

By the way, I'm on lenovo 3000 n200 laptop with 2gb ram... is it ok or a bit old?
I'll let you know once I install it if you said my hardware is ok... (within few hours)
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:32 am

Ok.. I have a surprise (though funny)

Last night 10 pm I installed 11.3 as follows:
1- I had 11.2 already installed, updated and customized
2- during installation I selected new installation, kde
3- updated the system and added the packman repo
4- installed few things including some needed for nepomuk to work (sesame, and something else)

The surprise, it just works and stable!! All what I mentioned before didn't happen (almost 12 hrs later because I left it overnight to index)

The only difference I could think of between the first time installation and now is that first time I did not install on top of 11.2, I deleted all the hard disk partitions including the user as if it is a brand new hard disk. This time I installed as a new installation on top of 11.2!

I don't know what's the difference, but I can conclude that maybe the hidden folders starting with ( . ) in the user partition contained some configuration from 11.2 that works, while the same in 11.3 was set by default to something not working! cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:55 am

That sounds more like it. I have several machines running openSUSE and have had success with both methods. As mentioned elsewhere the the only difficulty I have experienced to date was problems associated with nvidia drivers (black screen) when attempting an upgrade over the network using "zypper dup." This was essentially because I was unable to set the required kernel and system settings for the nvidia driver during the install procedure. Fortunately I attempted this on my test machine, so it did not affect any mission critical systems.

That's another thing, over the years I've tried to absorb the wisdom and lesson posted at this and the main board. It's handy to have a test machine when attempting to run a procedure you have not used before. But in my experience preparation is they key to a smooth install, I usually spend some time on this.

Anyway glad your most recent install appears to have gone well, like they say, "Have some fun."
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:10 pm

Quote :

I don't know what's the difference, but I can conclude that maybe the hidden folders starting with ( . ) in the user partition contained some configuration from 11.2 that works, while the same in 11.3 was set by default to something not working!
I've never really had a satisfactory result when upgrading over the top of the previous release. Maybe I'm just not adventurous enough.

I find a clean install is so easy to restock with data from the old home into the new home, leaving the baggage in the .dot folders behind. And after the dust of the installation of the basic distro settles for a new install, the finishing touches and bells and whistles take me about 3-4 hours on a lazy Sunday afternoon.

Nearly always the result is trouble free (except I have and ATI card which is a challenge).

The repeat cycle bugs me, too frequent IMHO.
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:46 pm

Rolling release is the way to go Wink


[2009-04-27 12:03] installed filesystem (2009.01-1) soon be 18mths still a damn pain for those with vmware 7.1 2.6.35 some tricks to do..

these 2 specifically
http://www.rrfx.net/2010/06/vmware-vmmon-module-compilation-issues.html vmmon error
and part 2
http://www.linuxinsight.com/persuading-vmware-workstation-7.1-to-cooperate-with-linux-kernel-2.6.35.html vsock error

Somedays I wish the kernel would just slow down a little.
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:05 pm

[quote="swerdna"]
Quote :
The repeat cycle bugs me, too frequent IMHO.

Yeah, I agree. I also think this militates against broader adoption. It's the old RTC thing, so there's some psychology here. The impression is created that 11.2 and 11.3 are different versions when the reality is the differences are not that great. I think in future it would be better to have version 12 with say SP1,2 and 3 to follow before moving to 13. This way the impression is created that the distro' is "stable" over longer periods of time. People draw comfort from reliability and stability over long periods of time rather like an old friend or trusted employee. I definitely think the dev's should consider this kind of approach.
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:19 am

FeatherMonkey wrote:
Rolling release is the way to go Wink


...

Somedays I wish the kernel would just slow down a little.

I totally agree that slowing down - not in the sense of laziness - should be adopted... in the sense of debuging, testing, and testing, so nothing is released unless it is stable and usable.

I believe that this applies to the kernel, kde, software in general.

Back to square 1, why do people switch from windoze to linux? We all know that it is because of stability and security, not because of features. So why should we put linux on equal foot with windoze by rushing to features and eye candy on the account of stability and security?

For example, Nepomuk is a great idea... but see how many complaints about it?
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:45 pm

Sorta on Topic is this report. It shows the interest via Google searches for Linux Distros. SUSE has been dropping from 2006 onwards. If I recall that was about the time the disaster that was 10.2 came out. 11.0 also hurt SUSE's cause with the adding of KDE4.0.

It would be nice if they added a stable version of openSUSE that was good for 3 years.

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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:10 am

winxp-escapee wrote:
limo wrote:
.. just pointing where the bugs are.

Bugs? Difficulties experienced with a specific system or hardware set up can't be assumed to be universal. To date I've found 11.3 to be rock solid and am delighted with the performance.

Recent review in Linux Format magazine rates 11.3 as 9/10,

Linux Format openSUSE 11.3 Review

I think I'd go along with this assessment.
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:57 am

sure there is something wrong with suse that we all feel as community members and users.
The rush to new features is not that good. And I believe that it is not affecting only suse but linux in general.

I have for example tried Kubuntu 10.04 and was not so comfortable with it (some bugs or glitches)

On the other hand I'm on linux mint 9 with kde 4.4, it's been quite some time and it seems great, shiny, stable, everything works out of the box (though it is based on the same latest ubuntu that I didn't like that much). You know why?

Here are very focused reasons:
1. it is based on the latest ubuntu, but;
2. They don't have a strict release schedule, not after features and new stuff but,
3. They focus on usability
4. any debian package can be installed on any debian distro
5. they provide easy way for restricted formats not caring much about philosophy (usability again)
6. The community (especially ubuntu's) looks like a community as we used to know it.

Now lets read again the above six points but negate each of them to list six describing suse or rpm based linux in general.

Wasn't suse doing almost as the six points above? What made them change their minds? Don't we have the solution now to revive suse?

By the way, the ubuntu community is trying to port Yast... and .. hell opensuse is still the best (in general)... and can gain much more scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:25 am

I see there is rumors that VMware may buy SUSE from Novell. It is a interesting thought. I have used VMware Workstation and Player for several years with SUSE as Host. I have felt that it has a lot of potential to be a container that could allow running programs without worry of what OS they were created for.

It sure would shake things up. I wonder how this might affect the Community since the Official Forum is a Novell backed enterprise.

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PostSubject: Re: Effect of Novell's Buyout on Future of SuSE Linux   Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:47 am

hmm.. I don't think if this happens it would be good for opensuse. I recall what I read about oracle buying sun, what I concluded is they are freezing it, they no open source growth anymore. I wonder what's going to happen to the open source software!

I don't feel comfortable, especially as I notice that communities in general are not as it used to be. Mad
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